Step 5 Toward Recovery | Sharing You

Speaker 1 00:00:02 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Pursue God podcast. I’m Pastor Brian, joined again in the studio by Pastor Mark, pastor Eric, and we’re talking about steps to recovery from addiction, whether porn addiction or drug addiction or alcohol, any kind of addiction at all. I guess you could be addicted to shopping, you could be addicted to sports if you wanna have recovery, if you wanna have victory. We’re talking through the 12 steps of aa. And today, guys, we’re on step number five. And before we get to step five, it’s rooted really in step four. It sort of comes out of, naturally flows out of step four, which was what we talked about last week, which was what? Taking a moral inventory, right?

Speaker 2 00:00:43 Right. Yeah. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory is what step four says. And it’s really kind of digging into, you know, not just admitting our addiction, but admitting all of the, just the, the really bad behaviors, the ways that we, um, interact with people and things. And, and just digging into just ki, you know, just to say it, digging into how messed up we really are. And, and so now we’ve kind of, we’ve dug all that up, um, and we’re ready to do something with it. And that’s what step five is. Step five is now we’re going to get that out. Okay? And so step five says, we admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. So we’re gonna take our, our moral inventory, and we’ve, we’ve kind of been admitting it to God because God hopefully was helping us through step four. Um, and as we’re going through step four, we’re, we’re facing it ourselves. So really, the biggest part of this step is admitting this to another human being.

Speaker 1 00:01:48 Yeah. And we’ll spend a lot of time talking about that here toward the end of our time. But let’s, let’s deal with that first one, admitting it to God. I would imagine someone out there might say, I don’t want to admit this to God, because their picture of God is that he’s this cosmic kill joy, that he’s gonna be angry, he’s gonna be upset. He’s never gonna forgive me. And so, you know, we’ve made those secret about this. We’re talking about recovery from the vantage point of biblical Christianity. So why don’t we spend a little bit of time making sure people understand who God really is?

Speaker 3 00:02:26 Yeah. And I think this is very important because if we don’t have a, a right view of God, um, then how do we get rid of our, our shame and our guilt? How can we be forgiven? Um, and so that’s where this leads us to, is if we think God is the, is he is just ready to judge everybody for everything they’ve done, which in a sense, he is going to do that one day, but for now, we have the chance at free grace, free forgiveness, and that is in the person of Jesus Christ. Right? And we’ve covered this in, in the last couple of steps, but just to, to rehash this, you know, God loves us so much that he sent his son to come down to be like us, to suffer along with us, and then to die for us so that we could be forgiven. Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins. God wants to forgive us. And that is exactly what he does in sending his son down. You know, John three 16, the, the most famous verse, right? Does anybody know that I, I’m not gonna say it, but I’m testing you guys. Well,

Speaker 1 00:03:37 You’ve already said it. Yeah. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, so that whoever would believe in him would have eternal life. But that verse is talking about believing in Jesus. And I, I could imagine an addict could be out there saying, well, it’s, I believe in God, and that’s the problem. I believe in him. And, but what I believe about him is that He’s mean. What I would believe about him is that he wants to zap me. Bec maybe because you had a dad who was like that, or a mom who was like that, or some authority figure who was like that. And so your picture of God is, has been sort of compiled over the years by the responses you’ve gotten from authority figures in your life. And maybe those haven’t been great responses. So you have this picture of God that he’s a mean cosmic killjoy.

Speaker 1 00:04:22 And, and again, we want to tell you that that is not the biblical picture of God. One of my favorite Bible verses is First John chapter one in verse nine. And this is in the New Living Translation. Now, for those who are new to the Bible, first John is right toward the end of the Bible. It’s, it’s right before the Book of Revelation, which is the, the last chapter in the, or the last book in the Bible. And in first John, John writes this, I love this. He says, if we confess our sins to him, which is what we’re talking about today, right? First of all, you’re gonna confess it to God. The Bible says, if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful. He is just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. We could spend the rest of the hour talking about this wonderful promise mm-hmm. <affirmative> from God’s word. But, but just sort of, why don’t we boil it down? What does this mean for the addict when he approaches God with his list of, of sins from his moral inventory?

Speaker 2 00:05:23 Well, it means exactly what it says. He’s, he’s faithful. We’re not faithful <laugh>, but God is faithful. And He’s made these promises throughout his word, that if we confess, if we, if we turn to him, that he will forgive us. And so I think, um, if we don’t have, you know, like a, a right view of God, then, then, yeah, this is gonna be a tough step. But that’s why it’s important for us to have a correct view of God, because he didn’t, you know, send Jesus down to die and suffer in our, our place for nothing. You know, that was for something and that means something. And, and it says that in, in Romans. It says, no matter what we’ve done right, it says, if we confess and, and, and believe in Jesus, no matter who we are, we can be forgiven. And, and I just think if we really have put our trust in God, if we’ve really embraced, you know, steps two and three and come to this, this faith and made that decision that this, this step is going to be something that we’ll be able to do and, and believe in, I, I would say if we’re coming to this and we’re struggling to confess to God because we, we still feel like he’s not going to forgive us, we probably need to go back to step two and, and three again.

Speaker 2 00:06:43 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 00:06:43 <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. Getting to the, the reality about what the Bible does say about Jesus. That’s step two. Step three is finally surrendering your will in life. Having that moment of faith, believing what he said and what he has done for you is true, no matter how you feel, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so now we’re at this point where, um, we need to trust God that what he says he’s going to do. And right here, it’s a promise. It’s a pretty simple one. If you confess, he will forgive. You can take that to the bank, right? And so I think a lot of us, and, and here’s the issue is that in order to move past this step, right? This is why everything is in steps. Um, we’ve gotta get rid of some of the shame that we have lingering that maybe came out in our step for moral inventory, right?

Speaker 3 00:07:33 And shame in the past has caused us to go relapse and self-medicate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. We, we feel shameful. And then we get into this cycle of feeling guilty. And what do we do when we feel guilty? We use, and how do we feel when we use, we feel guilty. And so then what do we do? We go use again. Right? And you get stuck in this cycle, and this is to break that cycle and to really trust God. We gotta get rid of the shame and guilt that causes us to keep going out and using again. And, and ho. So hopefully we will receive and trust in this forgiveness that he promises when we confess.

Speaker 1 00:08:10 Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Cuz that verse, again, we could spend so much time on this verse, it says, if we confess our sins, he’s faithful. So you, like you said, Eric, you can take, take it to the bank. And he does two things for us. Number one, he forgives us. And again, some addicts maybe haven’t really ever experienced forgiveness, like what God gives. Maybe the forgiveness that they’ve experienced is sort of conditional and well, I, I forgive you, but, but maybe you have a spouse or a parent or a kid or somebody, a friend who just wants to kind of throw it back in your face the next time you screw up. But that’s not the kind of forgiveness God gives us. You know, he talks about as far as the east is from the West, which if you think about that, there’s, that was an, that was a way to talk about infinity, right there.

Speaker 1 00:08:58 You can’t measure the distance between east and west. You really can’t. And so he’s saying, as far as the east is from the west, the Bible says, so, so has, that’s the distance that God has thrown your sin from him. So that’s the kind of forgiveness that we’re talking about that some people maybe have never experienced. But it’s not just that he’ll forgive us when we confess. That’s the first thing. The second thing in that verse is that he’ll cleanse us. And that’s, I think that’s something that you guys have probably experienced, right? If you don’t get past step four, you’re not really going to, or step five, I guess you’re not really gonna have victory because like you said, this shame cycle is gonna just keep you in bondage to your addiction.

Speaker 3 00:09:44 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that word cleanse just reminds me of what exactly, you know, part of our goal is, and what we’re trying to do is to get clean and stay clean. And it’s so cool that this says that he forgives us, then he cleanses us, and then with that, we are positionally clean with God. Now, let’s take that a step further and stay clean, right? And so how we’re gonna stay clean is to continually remember that we don’t have to fall back into the shame, but we can admit it to God. And I, I think this a lot of people struggle with, but you don’t know what I’ve done, right? Yep. You don’t know what I’ve done. Well, we’ve already talked about, you know, God already knows everything. He knows, you know, past, present, and future. He knows what’s in our minds and our hearts. I mean, he knows everything.

Speaker 3 00:10:33 So the the reality is, is if we’re not confessing things to God, he, he’s, he’s, he’s not sitting there saying, man, I wish they would just tell me what’s going on in their heart and their mind, and then I could help ’em. He’s like, no, if they would just be real, as we talked about last time, if they would just be real, I could, I could get this up and out, I could clean them, I could set them on a new path. But I think the thing that keeps us from even wanting to admit it to God is because, you know, the next point then is admitting it to ourselves, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we’re in denial sometimes, and we can’t even admit it to God because we haven’t even got to the place where we’re ready to admit again that we have a problem. And this mirrors basically step one all over again, getting out of denial, moving into reality, admitting that we have a problem. We’re gonna constantly be coming up against this test of humility and yeah. And so getting, uh, real with ourselves helps us to get real with God.

Speaker 1 00:11:39 Yeah. So that, and the verse for that is just one verse in front of the verse we just read. So we just read one John one, nine and one John one, eight. Man, this is so pertinent to the topic at hand, right? For addicts, it, it says this, if we claim we have no sin, we’re only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. Is that a, is that a verse for a, for addiction or what? I mean, it’s a verse for every human being, but it, it really does fit, especially people who’ve struggled with addiction. Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:12:11 Well, I think this, this connects the addict to the rest of humanity, right? Because addicts feel like, you know, no, there’s, there’s no, I’ve done too much. I’ve, I’ve done so much worse than anybody else. And you know, what the Bible says is we all sin, we all fall short of the glory of God. And if we claim otherwise, it says right here we’re, we’re fooling ourselves. Right? We’re deceiving ourselves. And so I think these two, um, confessions to God and confessions to ourself, they really go hand in hand. You know, they kind of, they kind of almost are in sync with one another. Because as we go through step four through our moral inventory, I think we’re, we’re, it’s like we’re writing it down and we’re starting to see it. We’re starting to see the real, I’m starting to see the real me as I’m documenting all this stuff, and I’m going through it, and then I’m coming to this process of, wow, okay, so this is, this is the real me, this is who I’ve been, you know, we’re we’re, and we’re telling it to God who already knows, right?

Speaker 2 00:13:12 We’ve talked about, he already knows everything. And so really, when we’re not admitting to God, it’s the same thing as we’re not admitting it to ourselves either. We’re just, we’re trying to live in denial. Um, but like it says, you know, he already knows everybody falls short. Um, and, but he’s faithful, he’s faithful to forgive. If we’ll just get it out there, we’ll just open up about it. We’ll just be real. It’s really, it’s the basis of a relationship is being real, being genuine, being honest. And so it’s impossible for us to really grow this relationship with God if we’re not gonna be real.

Speaker 3 00:13:50 Yeah. And you know, going back a little bit to talk about that crazy cycle, the shame cycle, the guilt cycle that causes us to keep going back into addiction. It’s interesting to me that actually these verses one John eight and nine, and then if you look at 10, it almost is a reiteration of eight. And so it talks about mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, if we say we, we have no sin, we’re a liar. And the truth is not in us, but God is faithful and just to forgive us from all unright and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And then it goes on to again say, you know, if you say that you don’t have a sin or, or sin, if you’re not a sinner, if you can’t admit that you’re a sinner, the truth is not in you. Right? So it’s like, and we talked about this in group a couple of weeks ago cuz we were going over this step, and it’s almost like a sandwich, you know, of sin and, and God, the good stuff’s in the middle <laugh> like an Oreo or something.

Speaker 3 00:14:45 But, but thinking of it like now, the new cycle is based off of these verses, instead of shame, using shame, using shame, now it’s admitting I’m a sinner, receiving grace, but falling again and sinning, but then going back and receiving grace again. It’s the new cycle that Christians ought to live in, which is constant humility and repentance. And part of repentance is confession, turning and, and, and following God and believing the truth about him. So our new cycle then, instead of shame, use shame use should now be admit our sin, receive forgiveness, but then admit

Speaker 1 00:15:29 Our sins.

Speaker 3 00:15:30 Admit our sin again. Because the reality is, is he’s talking to Christians here. Yeah. And, and even Paul says it about it, you know, we, we looked in, in step one that he’s still struggling in this flesh that he has. Why do I do what I do? Um, I don’t want to do these things, but somehow I keep doing them. You know, the things that I hate. Well, we as Christians are gonna continuously sin and struggle and that’s where we need to keep going back to the source of grace, forgiveness, and cleansing.

Speaker 2 00:16:01 Yeah. And that’s where, that’s where the cycles broken, is by what Jesus did, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because, you know, while we were still sinners, it says he died for us, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so that’s, that breaks that shame. He says, no, there is no shame. I already, I already did this. I already paid for this before you even came to me, before you even wanted me. I already did this for you. And that right there, that’s that love that breaks that shame cycle.

Speaker 1 00:16:31 Yeah. That’s good. And, but it is true that for, I, I’ve never thought about this passage like this before, Eric. I like that it’s a, it’s a sin sandwich <laugh>, or maybe it’s a confession sandwich, right? That because I, but it’s because it’s true for every, for every human being. If you, and I’m, I’m a little bit of a perfectionist, so, so for me, it would be helpful for me to hear that I’m going to mess up again

Speaker 3 00:16:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Speaker 1 00:17:01 And so, so you can kind of almost expect it. I’m gonna mess up again. Well then what happens when I mess up again? He’s faithful in just mm-hmm. <affirmative> to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And so, so we, we don’t have to fear the shame cycle anymore because ge like you said, mark, Jesus broke, he broke the cycle. He broke the curse because of his nature. Because his nature is to be forgiving his nature. He doesn’t want to smite us. He doesn’t want to wipe us out. He does. He’s not just wait happily waiting to destroy us. He, he gets great. His heart is to, is to free us. His heart is to help us. It says that Jesus said, my yo my yoke is easy and my burden is light. You know? And so the picture there is he’s in the yoke with us, right?

Speaker 1 00:17:54 They’re two oxen in, in the yoke and he’s the stronger oxen. That’s what they would do, is they would put the strong ox with the weak ox. And that’s why his yoke is easy, is because he’s carrying the burden with you. Uh, because he did the work on the cross already. And so for some people listening today, this is also new to them. That’s why every week we keep emphasizing the gospel. Like you shared earlier, Eric, that, that this is not some side issue what Jesus did on the cross 2000 years ago. This is the main issue. This is the thing that some people are missing, which is why that the higher power is, is the God of the Bible. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> not just a light bulb above your head. Like the higher power is the God of the Bible. Why? Because this God forgives you and this God has done everything needed in order to forgive you and set you free.

Speaker 3 00:18:41 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And and that’s why, you know, there’s, there’s kind of a nuance to the idea of calling ourselves addicts. And I think we talked a little bit about this, but just being honest about our sin problem and our sin nature, um, helps us to remember who we are and who God is. Um, we are, you know, sinful people that have been saved by grace and saved by the love of God. But I still am not perfect. And me remembering that I have a certain sin that draws me and pulls me away, you know, I have a certain temptation that others might not have in the world. Everybody in the world, as you said, this connects the attic to the whole whole world. Cuz all of us are sinners. But I have a unique one that other people don’t have that’s maybe I want to get loaded or, or watch things.

Speaker 3 00:19:38 And some people have self-control in that area, but don’t and others. And so, but we have to, this is going back to the, you know, admitting it to ourselves. Admit who we really are. We, we have a weakness. You know, Paul admitted that he had a weakness, you know, the thorn in the flesh story. He’s like, I want this gone for me. Why am I like this? But God says, you know, my grace is sufficient for you. You know, and so we live with this weakness and I’m okay with that. And he was okay with that. And we as recovering addicts should be okay with that. We have a weakness when it comes to certain temptations, admitting that more and more to ourselves is going to help us set the right boundaries in our lives as well.

Speaker 2 00:20:23 Yeah. In fact, you know, Paul, Paul talked about he’s, he’s boasts in his weakness. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> <laugh> because that’s where Christ power is, you know, made even bigger. It’s, it’s in our weakness. And, and so yeah. That’s why, you know, we talked, uh, a few weeks back about, you know, I, I don’t claim to be an addict for, you know, to just wallow in that, for me, it’s part of my, my testimony. It’s like, this is what God did for somebody who, who’s done everything that I’ve done, um, ran as far from God as I, as I possibly could. And then God still wanted to rescue me from that. I mean, that, that to me, that that’s one of those things that really won me over to Jesus.

Speaker 1 00:21:07 Yeah. And I praise God for both of you being pastors at our church, cuz I, I just feel like it makes our church stronger, that we’ve got some guys that have, have real experience in this that have, have, that have actually experienced victory. And so I think it gives great hope to not just people listening to this today, but people that show up to your churches and, and hear you teach and see a transformed lives. And it should give hope because God is the god of hope. And it, you know, it strikes me that, go back, going back to this verse, verse John one, nine, the only person then that this doesn’t apply to is the person who doesn’t confess. That’s why this step is so important. So if you, if you want forgiveness, if you want to be cleansed from wickedness, you have to humble yourself and confess, God doesn’t promise that to you unless you confess.

Speaker 1 00:21:57 That’s why this is so important. This step is so important. So confess it to God, confess it to yourself, be honest with yourself. But this third one’s really important as well. And we wanna spend a little time on this cuz I think this is where the rubber meets the road. The third part of this step is to confess it to someone else. Now, typically in aa, they would, would that, would that typically be a sponsor? You’d be confessing this, you’d be actually sitting down with a sponsor. Um, we would use the word mentor with a mentor and actually say, here it is. Here’s my, here’s my list, here’s my moral inventory and I’m gonna put it all on the table. Is that how it works?

Speaker 2 00:22:36 Yeah, that’s, that’s typically how it works. Um, you know, in, in the secular, secular groups, but in our groups as well. And, and we, um, you know, at at Alpine church, we, we, we use the word mentor. It’s pretty much the same as a sponsor. But we, you know, we have mentors for people in all walks of life, not just addicts. Um, so that’s what we would call it. But yeah, there’s, there’s something important here about admitting to another human being about getting this out there. We’ve gone through and we’ve, we’ve looked at everything we’ve done. We’ve admitted to God and to ourself. Now we need to really, we’ve humbled ourselves before God. Now we need to humble ourselves before, you know, people around us as well. And there’s something powerful about this. There’s something freeing about getting our secrets out. In fact, we, they say in AA a lot, you know, our secrets keep you sick.

Speaker 2 00:23:35 And they really do. They’re, they’re part of the shame. You know, we talk about that shame cycle that was broken. When that’s really broken is when we’re really ready to make this, this step, take this step because, um, shame is what prevents us from being willing to confess our sins to one another, which we’re told in the Bible to do is to confess to one another. Um, and so there, there is a, a huge thing with this. And, and for me, um, this kind of came in steps in, in waves. You know, I, I really, I didn’t really embrace this completely the first time around. And it’s actually what ended up pulling me back into my addiction was that I didn’t get it all out. I didn’t confess all of it. Hmm. Um, and so when I really, really hit rock bottom and I came to the place where I was desperate enough and I really started going through these steps, that’s where I came out with everything. I unloaded all of it. And there’s never been a more freeing point in and a more <laugh> scary point in my life than that. But, but it was, it was so freeing. Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:24:42 Yeah. There’s something interesting about the idea of confessing to another person, talking to another person, getting your stuff up and out to a tangible person. That’s the scary part of the, this entire lesson, I think, um, because to God and to yourself, okay, that’s an internal battle. And, you know, God is, is through prayer. And, but then you get to this tangible person part and you’re wondering, you know, what do they think about you? Uh, you’re, you’re worried about, um, what is this gonna do if I reveal my, are they gonna tell on me? Are they gonna tell other people? Uh, are they gonna just slam the door in my face and not give me time or attention? And the reality is, and we’re gonna get to talking about how to pick the right mentor then. Um, but before we do that, I just want to say, uh, it’s interesting to think back, and I don’t even know the history. You might Brian, cuz your wife’s a counselor, but the history of how long, um, the profession of, of a psychologist or whatever, or counseling, you know, one thing that’s always fascinated me, I’ve always wanted one of those weird looking couches. You know, you see in the movies that people lay on

Speaker 1 00:25:57 <laugh>, the cha the

Speaker 3 00:25:58 Cha lounge, the cha thing, and they, they, they go into this office, the guy or the gal lays on that thing and then they, like, they’re asked questions by the counselor and then they just reveal all we need to get one of those here maybe or something. <laugh>. I mean, what is with that really

Speaker 1 00:26:15 <laugh>? So what you’re, let me see, let me see if I can hear what you’re saying. So Eric, you’re saying, uh, if I’m reading between the lines, that if people were, were better at confessing their sins to pe to just regular people in their life, that maybe that profession wouldn’t even exist?

Speaker 3 00:26:32 Well, yeah, that’s probably true. But since, yeah, since that, uh, we can’t do it, then we’ve gotta pay people that we think that as, as long as they take our money, they can’t judge us. Cause <laugh> Right. They’re getting paid for it. So

Speaker 1 00:26:48 <laugh> Well, but no, that is, that does kind of come to the question of who should I confess this to? Cuz when you, you know, mark, when you shared this, what this was like for you, I’m thinking, man, does that put pressure on the person who’s hearing your confession? Does that, is that person supposed to give you counsel back? Or are they just listening to your confession? Because they might not know what to say to it?

Speaker 2 00:27:10 Right. Yeah, no, I, I think that somebody who’s experienced in this is who you’re looking for because really the purpose of this, it’s not, it’s not really to counsel. It’s not to give advice back. It’s really just to listen. Because the purpose of this step is to break free of those secrets. It’s to break those, the secrecy chains that you’re

Speaker 1 00:27:33 Wearing. Yeah. So you’re not, when you’re, when you’re doing this, it’s not a counseling session. You’re not asking for them to give feedback on it. No. You’re just unburdening your soul, so to speak. Exactly. And, and just letting it all hang out.

Speaker 2 00:27:47 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:27:48 And again, that has been a historical, uh, thing that has been portrayed on by the media, by different religions. Even practice this. Right. You know, you have a place where you can go into some kind of a box looking thing, <laugh> and confess a

Speaker 1 00:28:05 Catholic confessional.

Speaker 3 00:28:05 I still, I haven’t done that either. I, I, I need to go to that. And I also need one of those chairs. I mean, we’ll, we’ll

Speaker 1 00:28:12 Get you that, that would be awesome. We need to get you a cha lounge and a, and a bo and a confessional box, whatever they call that

Speaker 3 00:28:18 <laugh>. Yeah, that would be cool. But I, you know,

Speaker 1 00:28:21 It’s a strange Christmas list, Eric. Yeah, that

Speaker 3 00:28:24 Is.

Speaker 1 00:28:25 Okay. So for you, mark, when you did this, uh, you said when you first did it, you weren’t completely honest.

Speaker 2 00:28:34 No. Well, and for me it’s, you know, I had to do this with my wife because she was the one who, um, was the victim of, of my sexual addiction, a sexual addiction. Um, and so, yeah, the first time, the first time I really did this, I admitted as much as I could without feeling like it was gonna be the end of it all. Uh, there were a, there were a few things that I, that I held onto that I knew if I told her that was gonna be it, there’s no way. And I thought I could, I could just carry on, right. That those things could just be dead and buried and they’d never resurface. And I could go on and live this life, but man, no, those secrets, they just wait on me. They weighed on me. And that sh and when I, you have secrets, you have shame.

Speaker 2 00:29:29 And so eventually I fell back into my addiction. And so when I did that, um, and I was just so lost and broken that I wanted nothing to do with secrets anymore. I didn’t wanna live this life anymore. And I was willing to, to do whatever it took. I was willing to tell, tell her everything, even knowing that there’s no way she could take that. There’s no way she could forgive that. Um, but I had to, I knew that I had to for my own soul. Like, I just, I couldn’t do it anymore. I just couldn’t. I knew that my relationship with God was not gonna be where it needed to be. And it, and it was, it was killing me.

Speaker 1 00:30:12 So what was the end of that story? How did your wife respond to the full weight of those secrets?

Speaker 2 00:30:18 It was, it was rough. Um, I, you know, I, I confessed to an infidelity and knowing that there was no way she was gonna be able to get over that, and she knew that, I knew that she, she didn’t even really say much. She just left, um, went and slept in another room. I was planning to pack my bags the next morning, um, and leave because I knew that that’s what she was gonna want. Um, I just, I just prayed. I spent hours and hours praying and gratefully she was doing the same thing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in the other room, God was just, man, he was just building her up her broken heart. He was just kind of holding it back together and giving her the strength to come in and forgive me. And it was just, I, to this day, I, I, there’s no greater miracle I’ve experienced than that.

Speaker 3 00:31:21 You know, that, that kind of sh is a great story. Um, and a lot of us, you know, have experienced stories where we were afraid to share what we were gonna share to the person. And that, that’s kind of making amends, which we’ll get to in some later steps. But we’re afraid to share some things because we’re worried about the outcome. Thank God that your wife was a Christian, you know, so that she knew that the, our God is a forgiving God. And that was probably a lot that had to do of, of, of her conviction to forgive you. And so that’s awesome. That reminds me of, of James chapter five, verse 16, um, that applies to this very point here that kind of commands us then. And he says, therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. And, you know, for you, it sounds like that that was part of your journey is confessing to her as a fellow believer. And you guys were praying and she was praying for you and praying for herself. But this also applies to us as we’re trying to pick a mentor, then pick a sponsor, pick a mentor as pick someone that we’re willing to ask, uh, for prayer for ourselves even,

Speaker 2 00:32:43 Right? Yeah. Oh yeah,

Speaker 1 00:32:45 Yeah. Mark, would you say, would you, you know, for someone who’s listening who has, they’re just a little bit further back on the road from you and they’re, they’re really starting to think about, uh, they’re probably breaking out in sweats right now, thinking about confessing this to their spouse. Would you recommend that your spouse is the one, is the first confidant the first mentor that you tell all to? Or is there someone else that would be better just as a general rule?

Speaker 2 00:33:12 Yeah, I, I would say, you know, my experience was probably the exception to the rule. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I, I think for the most part, cuz it did, like, like Eric was talking about this, this goes into step nine of making amends. Um, and, and so they kind of went hand in hand there. Um, but yeah, this is, this is something that you need somebody who’s gonna be a trusted individual who’s willing to just listen because this, the point of this step is to get it out there. Um, now there will be a time where we come to the step where we need to make amends mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that’s gonna be, that’s gonna be frightening in itself. But, but no, I, it’s, it’s gonna be a case by case basis. You know, you’re gonna need to really seek some wisdom in, in who and how you’re going to get this stuff out there. So, no, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that your spouse, if, if you’ve had an infidelity, um, I wouldn’t say your spouse maybe would be the first person that you open up to about it. They might be. Um, but that’s gonna, like I said, that’s gonna take some wisdom. Um, I, I would seek counsel from a few people and, and, and do a lot of praying to God about

Speaker 1 00:34:24 It. Yeah. I would imagine for some spouses, they don’t really, it, it might not be helpful for them to have all the gory details. I know that for Tracy and I, when we’ve worked with couples in dealing with infidelity, we, we usually encourage the, the, uh, the person who stepped out on the marriage to tell all to somebody, and that the spouse knows that somebody knows everything. Because I think that’s part of building trust up mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Yeah. But not every spouse probably can handle that, can handle all the details. Right. Um, but, but it, it’s helpful to know that there’s someone, and that, and what I would say on, I mean, you guys can correct me if I’m wrong here, but we also say is, is that the, the spouse needs to know who that confidant is, and that spouse can ask the confidant has that person’s number, can ask them anything. There’s no secrets there. But it kind of puts it a little bit more in the spouse, in the, the offended spouse. It puts it more in her hands to know what she’s really ready, he or she or here is really ready for. Would you say that that would be a smart step in this particular area?

Speaker 2 00:35:31 I would think for this instance? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, this would, this would be a, a different kind of circumstance than, you know, a sponsor for other addictions? Maybe? I don’t know. Eric, what would you say with, with another addiction?
Speaker 3 00:35:44 No, no. I would say, I mean, in a, in a situation where my spouse was, you know, relapsing and I had to call her sponsor and say, you know, what’s going on and, and talk about it. And we had to kind of develop a plan together. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that’s because I had a lot of, you know, I have a background in addiction and stuff as well, but, um, there are certain things that should be kept confidential. And only if, um, the person that’s confessing is willing to, to give it, then, then you could say to your, your mentor or sponsor, okay. You can share that. But again, finding a mentor that can be trusted is going to make it easier for the person to be able to confess all the things that they have, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and even us, right? As pastors, we kind of have a rule.
Speaker 3 00:36:43 Um, we don’t necessarily share, we don’t share people’s things that they, they confess to us. Right. There’s a, like, one exception to that rule is that if, if someone’s in immediate danger and there’s, you know, abuse involved or whatever, but with a mentor, um, they probably have the same, the, the same accountability if some, if they hear something like, like that, right? If someone’s in immediate danger, somebody’s, you know, could be physically hurt or whatever, then they’ve gotta do something. But ultimately we do want to find someone, um, that understands the story first and f first and foremost. That’s why we should find someone that’s been through what we’ve been through mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because then they can first not be shocked by it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, I tell people all the time, like, you can, you can say whatever you want to me, but, uh, there’s a good chance that I’ve probably done a lot more worse things than you have <laugh>. And that’s oftentimes how I get people to warm up, like in groups or in one-on-one mentoring or counseling. So you don’t

Speaker 1 00:37:48 Need the cha lounge, you don’t need the fancy

Speaker 3 00:37:51 Pouch. Well, not anymore <laugh>. Not anymore. I, I mean, I still want, but he still wants it. I still want to do it. I mean, I still, I confess regularly to p god, myself and other human being <laugh>. Yeah. I’d just like to do it from a couch every once in

Speaker 2 00:38:04 A while. <laugh>, you just wanna be a little more

Speaker 3 00:38:06 Comfortable or in a box <laugh>, you know? But, but no, I, this is, I was gonna say this actually too is this is why probably when you meet recovering addicts that they seem like they don’t have a filter. <laugh>, <laugh>, they seem like they’re just willing to share all, and it makes a lot of people uncomfortable because we know that confessing is better than holding it in, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we’ve gotten to this point where it’s like, well, I don’t care what anybody thinks about me anymore. You know, I’m gonna share because number one, God thinks the world of me, he died for me and he loves me. Uh, so who cares what everybody else thinks. But number two, if I keep this in, um, then I could stay sick. And so we’ve gotten used to confessing probably sometimes to the wrong people at the wrong time, <laugh>.

Speaker 3 00:38:55 And we could, we could learn to, uh, get, get better at that. But, um, in, in, as we’re talking about finding a mentor, this is again, the, this is the step where we’re saying, if you don’t have one, you should find one. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> at your local church, Christian Bible believing church. Um, you should find someone that has gone through some of the same things that you’ve gone through, but they have more time than you clean. And they’ve, they’ve, you see the power of God working in their lives and they’ve been transformed. Find someone that has what you want, um, in a lifestyle and in the victory in the same category of sin that you struggled with. That’s gonna be the best case scenario to find a mentor like that.

Speaker 1 00:39:43 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. This is something I’ve, I’ve asked you guys before, I want to hear your answer again, but it is, it, you know, you say that, so I haven’t had an addiction, I haven’t had an addiction like you have Eric. So is it, is it true, do you think, from your perspective, is it true that I would not be a good mentor for you in the area of addiction?

Speaker 3 00:40:04 Yes. Yeah, that’s true. I mean, there’s a lot of things that you do understand. I mean, biblically, you know, you can, you can understand just the, the nature of man and, and sin and all that type of stuff. But, uh, and, and, and you would be a, a good mentor, you know, on the backup or just one of many mentors, right? Because I also believe, you know, the Bible says that in the abundance of counselors mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there is victory, right? Right. And so, um, but finding a particular one that can relate to you is going to be the best start, um, on your road to recovery. But having multiple people, people that can teach you about the Bible, people that can teach you about marriage and, and other practical things in your life where, where you would be a good mentor to that. But as far as taking someone through the steps and calling people out and, uh, stuff like that, I think you need to find someone who is a recovering addict.

Speaker 3 00:41:03 And I, there’s something that’s said a lot in like, secular meetings and, you know, this mysterious ability that us addicts or recovering addicts have that I know that I have. Um, and I don’t know, I don’t think it’s necessarily anything spiritual, but people call it a sixth sense. Um, like I can just tell that I can, I can kind of almost predict when a person’s gonna relapse, but I can certainly tell, I can just, just go walking around, you know, in my city or in the grocery store or whatever, and I can pick out people that are using, you know, that might be on something or are in the middle, uh, in between getting clean and sober. It’s just this weird thing that I can look around and I can, I can tell, I don’t know, maybe it’s called a BS meter or something like that, <laugh>. But I can just tell, um, when people are using and that type of person that can call you out, because that’s a lot of what we’re gonna need eventually is to be like reminded of, Hey, you’re not being truthful to this idea that you’re a sinner, so I’m gonna have to remind you, you know?

Speaker 2 00:42:12 Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s like <laugh>, you’d call it a BS meter. I think it’s true. I, you know, I can tell in my group when, when new people come, I can almost tell instantly if they’re being real or not. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it’s just, I can just tell, you can see that level of vulnerability and desperation, and you can tell when it’s not there. You can tell when they’re, they’re just putting up a complete front. Um, and yeah, I think it is, it’s just something because we’ve done it, because we’ve tried to pull the wool over people’s eyes. We’ve tried to manipulate and lie our way out of everything. We’re just, we’re experts at it. So <laugh>, you want an expert to, to solve a, a

Speaker 1 00:42:57 Problem. Well, and I think that’s helpful to hear. I, you know, I, I was naive years ago in ministry, I just thought, oh, I could help anyone. I could help an addict. And I, I learned pretty quickly that I don’t, I, you know, I would take it at face value if an addict said, no, no, they’re doing great. I would take it at face value. And I remember a, a an old friend who, who sat down with me with a guy who was struggling with addiction, and his interaction with this guy was so different than mine. And I, I said to him afterward, I said, John, how did you, why were you so straightforward and blunt and rude and <laugh>? And he’s like, he was like, he, because he was lying <laugh>. And he totally, he had that sixth sense you’re talking about. And I didn’t at all have that kind of discernment with this guy. And, and John was right. John was, he was dead on and he helped that guy to victory. That guy is still living in victory today. And I thank God for John’s influence in his life. Cuz if it was just up to me, uh, I don’t think I could’ve really helped him. And I think it’s important for people to hear that. So if you’re listening right now, and you’re now, I think you could probably confess to someone who might not eventually be your mentor. Right? Is

Speaker 2 00:44:13 That true? Yeah. Well, yeah. And I think, you know, you talk about being, you, you can pastor somebody, right? You know, who’s su struggling with an addiction. You can, you can lead that person to salvation. Right? Right, right. Um, but as far as really solving the issue of addiction, I mean, there’s only so much you’re gonna be able to, able to do. Yeah. Without having some, um, experience there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 00:44:34 Which I, which we’ll talk about more later because that’s part, that’s the, that’s the, the bright side of this as well. That means that people like you have a real calling on your life to help people, and it’s part of your healing as well to help somebody else. We’re gonna get all into all that as we continue on in our Steps of recovery series. So let’s read it one more time. Step number five to recovery. Mark, what is it we

Speaker 2 00:44:59 Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs?

Speaker 3 00:45:05 Hey, I’m feeling a little bit convicted before we end here. I just need to reiterate that BS actually stands for Bull Sauce <laugh>. We’re not, we’re not promoting any swear words or language. We’re, we’re trying to get holier here, just so you guys know.

Speaker 1 00:45:19 Thank you for that confession. Yeah, right there, <laugh>. That was good. Uh, so anyway, uh, if you want, if you’re listening and you want to use these resources in a 12 steps group or with a mentor or the family member, we encourage you to check it all out at pursue god.org/recovery. This was step number five, and join us next week as we talk about step number six.