Step 1 Toward Recovery | Admit You’re Powerless

Speaker 1 00:00:02 Well, hey there everybody. Welcome to the Pursue God Podcast. I’m Brian Dwyer. Today in the studio, I’m joined by Pastor Mark Alstrom, pastor Eric Coud. And we’re talking today about recovering from an addiction. In fact, this guys is the first of, well, let’s see if we can finish all 12 of them. But we’re gonna be going through the 12 steps of aa, essentially, uh, because you guys both lead recovery groups on this. You guys use these resources. You can find these resources@pursuegod.org. If you just search for step one, you’ll find today’s topic. There’s a video to go along with it. There’s discussion questions, uh, everything’s there. So these resources are great for, uh, recovery groups. You guys lead these groups, and you also have your own stories. So before we even get into step one, and before we talk about, you even talk about your stories of addiction, Eric, why don’t we start with this? Because some people might be listening to this saying, oh, I can turn this off cuz I don’t have an addiction. I’m not an addict. And so you have, real quick, let’s just start with seven signs that you might have an addiction. Why don’t you go ahead and go through that with

Speaker 2 00:01:12 Us? Yeah, yeah. I, I I think that a lot of people, uh, are in denial, um, about whether they’re addicts or not, or maybe they’re confused because maybe they haven’t had as many life consequences yet, you know, or they’re able to maintain a certain lifestyle without getting into too much trouble. Not everybody has the same severity, but, um, I, I like to ask seven questions. There’s probably more than this, but, um, questions I would ask to help a person understand whether they’re addicted or not is one is, do I use something to cope with feelings? Another one is, do I use something to escape reality? Do I use something as a personal reward? Um, do I use something to be social? Do I use something weekly or daily? Do I use something illegally or over the prescribed dose? And do I use something to get buzzed or drunk? And so I think that all people probably struggle with some kind of compulsion, obsession, addiction. And, and a lot of people would probably answer yes to those, but depending on what it is is, or the severity of it would, would help a person understand whether they, they need to be more serious about this topic of
Speaker 1 00:02:32 Recovery. Yeah. So what are the kinds of things someone can be addicted to? Obviously when you think of aa, the 12 steps of aa, that’s alcoholics anonymous, but it’s not just alcohol, right? That’s just the tip of the iceberg. What are some of the other things you can have an addiction to?

Speaker 3 00:02:46 Well, um, my own addiction, I, I’ve al I’ve struggled with sexual addiction, um, in my past. And, and I know there’s all kinds of, uh, different addictions like that kind of the, you know, we could call ’em like process addictions. There’s, there’s food addictions, um, shopping, uh, there, there’s a lot more than just the typical ones that we think about when it, you know, we think about alcohol or drugs, um, and they can be just as destructive, a lot of ’em. So, um, my personal story with, with sexual addiction, it really, you know, these questions that, that we asked to determine if something is an addiction or not. Um, I did, I used, I used a lot of these things, pornography and things as a coping mechanism, and I didn’t really ask these questions to myself. When I started out. It was, you know, I knew it was something that, that probably wasn’t good.

Speaker 3 00:03:36 Um, but over time, as it started to take over my life, and it started to become progressive where it wasn’t, um, you know, just looking at pornography anymore, it was, you know, different, different online things and, and eventually, um, even acting out on these things where, um, you know, I was, I’m, I’m married, but I was, I was stepping outta my wife and, and it, it really, it just took me down a road that I never saw myself going down. And I think that’s really the story with addiction and what it does for all of us.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 Yeah. What’s the mindset, guys? And maybe you can go back to your addictions, your struggles with this. What’s the mind, what are the, some of the lies that you tell yourself early on? It might be helpful for someone who’s listening to this who might be thinking, no, I don’t know if I have an addiction. I’m not sure if I have an addiction. I’m sure there are some listening to this who are saying that others know exactly what their problem is. Um, maybe they’ve even gone to recovery groups, but there might be some listening that have never gone to recovery group. They’ve never, they wouldn’t view themselves of an as an addict. Right. And so, even that list you read, Eric, might be a little bit of an eye opener for someone. What, what were some of the lies that you told yourselves early on in your addiction? Mark, yours was with, uh, sex, sex addiction. Um, Eric, yours was with, with drugs mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we’ve got kind of a representation of a couple of those here. So what are some lies you told yourself early on?

Speaker 2 00:05:09 Um, I, I think if I look back and, and think about, you know, the different stages in life I was in, I mean, there was a lot of how it got started was, um, wanting to fit in. Right? And so thinking to myself, if I do this, people will accept me. People will think I’m, I’m cool. I’m part of the crowd, right? That, that, that was a thought that was in my mind. And eventually as the, uh, the addiction progressed, I think it would be, you know, more along the lines of, I deserve this, um, or I just want to relax, or, um, I’m frustrated and angry or sad, or having some kind of an emotion that I wasn’t comfortable with. And so I want to go escape, you know? And so those were usually the thoughts that would pop into my head is, oh, that’s gonna make me feel good, or that’s gonna take my problems away. Hmm. Right. To where I’m not gonna think about this anymore.

Speaker 1 00:06:05 And Eric, how old were you when you first started messing with drugs and, and alcohol?

Speaker 2 00:06:10 Um, I can, I va I vaguely remember. I think it was probably at about, uh, I mean, 10 or 11 years old. My neighbor, um, had, me and my older sister, <laugh> had me try, uh, marijuana for the first time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and so that happened, and then that was just kind of like a one-time thing. But a year and a half later is when, because I had already given in and opened the door that one time when it started to come around, um, in different ways, in different circles of people, I, I had already done it. And so, you know, right around 13, 12, 13 years old is when I started really, you know, down that path of, of drugs. It was marijuana. And then it turned into trying out meth and, uh, you know, alcohol was there as well. Um, and I did that for a couple years. And then what had happened was I got caught with some marijuana. And so, um, I, I had to be in a court order program, which was good, and I stayed clean for two and a half to three years after that. And then, you know, my story goes on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.

Speaker 1 00:07:25 Mark, when we’ll hear more of that story mm-hmm. <affirmative> over the next 12 weeks, Eric, but Mark, for you, what were some of the li for with the sex addiction and porn addiction? What are some of the lies then that you were telling yourself in that time?

Speaker 3 00:07:39 Well, some of them are actually, they’re pretty similar to, you know, drug addiction is, you know, well, this is just something to make me feel good. Um, and I think one of the biggest lies with, especially with pornography or sexual addiction, um, it’s, it’s justifying it, saying that this really isn’t that bad. Mm-hmm. Especially with pornography, where I’m, I, I really haven’t acted out on anything. It’s, it’s, I, I’m doing this, you know, privately I’m doing this myself. I tell myself I’m not hurting anybody. Mm-hmm. Right. Nobody needs to know about it. Right. And over time, you know, even, even as I do it, and I feel repulsed, right, I do. I, I feel repulsed by the things that I’m doing, but over time, I continue to justify it so much that I believe that it isn’t wrong. And I think that’s probably the biggest lie when it came to this kind of stuff with, with my addiction, was just convincing myself that it wasn’t wrong. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Speaker 1 00:08:34 So Mark for you, yeah. You said you feel repulse, and I’ve talked to guys with sex addictions about this, and it seems like, especially for Christians, for people who, and I don’t know, were you a Christian when you first started the addiction? No. But you still knew it was wrong? I

Speaker 3 00:08:48 Did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, God’s written his law in our hearts, right?

Speaker 1 00:08:51 That’s

Speaker 3 00:08:52 Right. Yeah. And so, even people who aren’t believers, they know it’s wrong. Yeah. Otherwise we wouldn’t hide it. Right. Um, and even though the world is trying to normalize it more and more, we, we know in our hearts that it’s wrong. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, yeah. No, I, I, I knew it was wrong, even though I wasn’t a believer.

Speaker 1 00:09:06 Okay. So you were repulsed at first, but over time, the more you did it did, were you, did that feeling of being repulsed lessen over time? Did you, did your heart get hardened a little bit to it over time?
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peaker 3 00:09:17 I, I think a little bit. I think I always continued to feel repulsed by it, and I continued to, um, not really want to do it, even though I told myself otherwise. You know, that was, there’s another lie right there is, you know, telling myself that, you know, knowing that I don’t want to do it anymore, but telling myself I do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, yeah, it just, it just carried on from there.

Speaker 1 00:09:43 Well, so again, in this, over the next 12 weeks in this series on the podcast, we’re going to be, um, talking through these 12 steps. I don’t think there’s anything particularly magical about the 12 steps. I just know that they’ve really helped people. Wouldn’t you guys agree that the, the real power behind, obviously the real power behind it is, is God, right? We’ll talk about this as we go, but it’s also then just being honest about it, right. Finally being willing to talk about it. So there are some people, I’m sure, listening to the podcast that we’re, the, the podcast is safe. You know, maybe somebody shared this podcast with them, or they stumbled across it, they searched for whatever, and, and they’re like, well, it’s safe for me to listen to these guys. So, and I, and that’s good. I want it. I want this to be a safe place.

Speaker 1 00:10:29 But eventually people have to go beyond just listening to this in the privacy of their own car, right. On their commute to work or whatever. Like, they have to be willing to do something about it. And so, um, and, and again, we’ll, we’ll talk over the next, over the course of this series that we’re doing, uh, on the 12 steps. We’ll make sure that we’re talking about this. But I appreciate you guys for coming on and being honest and vulnerable. And I wanna say to people listening that there is hope for you. I’m looking across the table at two guys who are now pastors. So obviously you’ve had sustained victory over this. And that’s the goal. The goal is sustained victory, right? Sustained victory means that you don’t have an active struggle with drugs or alcohol or, or porn addiction or sex addiction. It doesn’t mean you aren’t tempted.

Speaker 1 00:11:18 It doesn’t mean you, you don’t struggle. You don’t, you don’t, you know, want to kind of go back to the old ways. But we’re gonna be talking about that, that I think over these 12 weeks that the goal is sustained victory. It’s, it always bugged me that alcoholics always have to call themselves alcoholics. Now, I’m not an alcoholic, but I have a lot of alcoholism in my family. And so I, but as a follower of Jesus, maybe you guys could help me with this as a follower of Jesus, I’m like, no, if you’ve been made a new creation, you’re a new creation. You’re a new creature in Jesus Christ. So, but still, there’s something about being, about calling yourself an a recovering addict, right? That is, that is helpful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? And so maybe before we even jump into step number one, you guys could speak to that for a second.

Speaker 2 00:12:04 Yeah. I think it’s, it’s, uh, being humble. It, I think it’s humility and recognizing that I do have a problem, um, being real about who I am, you know, which is what we will talk about in step one. But f in our groups, you know, we get together and, um, we, we don’t make people say that. Like in a secular AA group, they do say, you know, they want you to say, hi, my name’s so-and-so, I’m an addict, an alcoholic. And, and we simply just say, Hey, tell us your name so we can know who you are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I always do it, um, a little bit, for my sake, it used to be at first. Now I do it so that other people will feel comfortable. Okay. The guy leading the group, the pastor is saying, I’m a recovering addict. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that helps other people feel comfortable.

Speaker 2 00:12:53 But, um, but, but in all reality, I think at first it kind of is, it’s just about being real about what my struggle is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I’m just naming it out loud in front of everybody, and that’s what happens. Or at least in my life, one thing that I real, I, I feel really blessed about, um, that other people might not be able to fully understand about me, but it’s, I feel comfortable being transparent. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I feel comfortable telling people my faults. Sometimes it’s probably uncomfortable for people <laugh>, but I, I’m comfortable laying it all out on the table before people, because I started off going to groups at a young age, you know, court ordered, and not, and part of this talking gift that I have must have came out in these, these groups where we had to just talk. And so now I’m a preacher, and I talk and I tell people all about my sins and how Jesus saved me from those.

Speaker 2 00:13:50 And I think it’s very similar when we’re talking about recovery. These are my sins. These are, this is where I’m weak, you know, it reminds me where Paul says I boast about my weaknesses. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. So for, that’s how I would apply. When I say I, I’m a recovering addict. I’m recovering though, like I’m not, I don’t label myself, um, inactive addiction mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I do know that, you know, until one day, until God, you know, calls me home, I will have a certain temptation that will probably, um, be on my mind or used against me, probably for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 00:14:28 But, and, uh, maybe the thing as a pastor, the thing that bothers me about that is, and, and let me at least say this, you guys can correct me cuz I rec, I recognize I’m ignorant. Ignorant. You guys do ministry in these groups, so you understand this so much better than I do. So maybe you just need to set me straight. But what I want to tell people is that is not your identity. Like, yes, you should say, I’m a recovering addict. You should not ever get to the point where you feel like you’re beyond temptation, and you could never fall back into an addiction. I, I understand that. I think the thing that I just would, would want people to hear is when you’ve come to faith in Jesus, and we’ll talk about that time and time again for, for listeners who, who don’t know what we’re even talking about.

Speaker 1 00:15:12 But when you come to faith in Jesus, you have a new identity. You really have been created a new, and, and God is, there’s a new power at work within you. The Holy Spirit. We’ll get into all this over these next 12 weeks. And so the, I think maybe, maybe I would be comfortable with someone saying, I am a child of God redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and I’m a recovering addict. I’d be okay with that. But I think it’s when people say, I’m a recovering addict, maybe at least in a secular setting, where they, that just sounds so hopeless. And it sounds like that that is still the, the identity that drives them, that’s still the identity that’s at the center of who they are. And I think as a follower of Jesus, what’s at the center of who you are as Jesus Christ. And that’s where we get victory. Am I off base here guys? Go ahead. You can, you can be honest with me and tell me if I’m

Speaker 3 00:15:58 No, I think there’s a, there’s a point that you’re, that you’re making That is true. I think, and, and even, you know, early on, you know, when I first started coming to Eric’s recovery group, it, it was something that Eric did talk about that, that, you know, that’s not your identity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you, you know, being an addict is not your identity. And in fact, I remember Eric talking in groups sometimes identifying himself as, I’m a recovering addict saved by grace or something like that. And, and, you know, it was always, he was coming up. Good job, Eric, the new one every time. And it was always, it was always good. Right? Good. Because, good job. Cause it really did kind of keep us in that mindset of, yes, I’ve got this, this problem, um, but it’s not my identity. But I think, like Eric was talking about, there’s this level of humility that we wanna maintain too.

Speaker 3 00:16:44 Right? We wanna remember that we still live in the flesh. Right. We’ve still got our flesh. Yeah. You know, and even, even when I’m saved by grace and I have this new nature in me, I still am carrying that flesh. And I can, I can easily go back to it any time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if I’m deciding not to live in the spirit. But I think a lot of it too, for me, um, labeling myself as a recovering addict is part of my testimony. Remembering what, what Christ has done in my life. Like knowing where I came from. So that’s a powerful thing to me mm-hmm. <affirmative> to keep that in my mind, not just for humility’s sake, but to, but to remember what what Christ has done is in my life.

Speaker 1 00:17:25 Yeah. That’s good. All right. I receive it. I received that guys. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I, I, I can see it your way now. All right. So let’s jump into step number one.

Speaker 2 00:17:33 You can be an addict then cuz of that humility. <laugh>, thank you. You’re recovering, uh, non labeling, recovering addict <laugh>.

Speaker 1 00:17:42 Well, and you know, the truth is, we, we, we almost invited a fourth guy into this, around the table here cuz he’s addicted to Diet Coke, he said. And so I thought, you know, maybe we do ha need to have a guy because really addiction, you know, addiction, you guys, I’m sure say it in your groups, but anyone, anyone can be addicted. You could be addicted to just negative thinking. You could be addicted to selfishness, you could be addicted to TV or whatever. But these things that maybe someone wouldn’t label as such a, such a problem. And so you probably don’t see these kinds of people showing up to your groups. Right. But I do think that this conversation can benefit everybody. And so let’s, let’s jump into these again, these 12 steps that what these were, these were invented, what, back in the 1950s, I think.

Speaker 1 00:18:26 Something like that. So they’ve been around for a long time. They’ve, they’ve given a lot of people victory. And we thank God for that. I know that they were based on biblical principles at first. I think probably you can go to AA groups now around the world and, and they’re, they might not be very Christian mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But we’re of course gonna be talking about this from a biblical point of view. So if you’re out there listening to this, you’re not a believer yet. You’re not a Bible believing Christian. We hope you’d still listen and, and, and understand why we have hope in Jesus. And you guys will share that personally over the next 12 weeks. But let’s start with step number one toward addiction. What I love about AA guys is you guys understand, you guys can quote it probably off the top of your head. So what is step number one?

Speaker 2 00:19:10 Well, the, the first step in, in 12 steps is it’s, uh, admitting that we’re powerless over our addiction and that our lives had become unmanageable. So it’s really the, the step that comes to say, um, the reality about where we’re at in our lives right now. Right. Step number one is for someone who, um, needs to admit that thing that we were just talking about. Are you an addict or not? Are you addicted? Do you have issues or not? Right? So, so that really ties into what we were just talking about is admitting that you have a problem. That’s really the, the first step.

Speaker 1 00:19:50 How hard is that in your experience, both personally and with some of the men and women that you guys have helped through an addiction?

Speaker 3 00:19:58 Uh, I think this, um, this is one of the two hardest phases I think, in addiction because, um, for so long, I know personally I wanted to not face this fact <laugh> of how lost I was. And, and that, and it’s something that I see over and over people who come to our groups getting to this point of, of really recognizing how powerless I am over this thing and how unmanageable my life is. The, the chaos that we’ve created, you know, it, it’s just hard because our pride doesn’t want us to get to that place. You know, the, the, the flesh that we live in just has this pride that we don’t want to admit that we don’t have control over this. We don’t want to admit that I can’t fix this on, on my own. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so this, for me, um, it’s, it comes to this level of, of desperation almost of, of having so much loss and, and just seeing so much chaos that you, I’m finally, I’m finally defeated, I guess I would say. Hmm. I’m finally defeated and that’s where God can finally step in and start to do some work.

Speaker 1 00:21:14 So, mark, in your story, what brought you to this point?

Speaker 3 00:21:19 For me, it was, um, as all of the secrets and lies that I had been hiding for so long started to come out, um, my wife started to, to, to learn things and to find and discover all these things. And, and I came to the point where I, I realized, um, that my, my life was a mess. My marriage honestly was dead. Um, it wasn’t what I pretended it was. Um, and I realized that after years of trying to overcome this on my own, through my own sheer willpower, that I was, I was powerless. And I, there was nothing I could do to overcome this on my own.

Speaker 1 00:22:06 So for you, this is good. Let’s get real practical. So for you, when you came to that realization, and some of it was, it sounds like some of it was cuz your wife found out, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that was probably a triggering event for you. Now you had to make a decision, are you going to deal with this or are you gonna keep stuffing it? Right.

Speaker 3 00:22:24 Right. Yeah. No, and that’s one of the, I I think, you know, that’s one of the, the scary things right? Is getting caught. But it’s also, it’s a, it’s a blessing. Mm mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because I didn’t have the courage on my own. I just, I just didn’t, there was no way I could come out with this stuff on my own. I had buried too much. I had too many secrets, too many skeletons in the closet that I was never gonna come out with this. And so God was gracious enough to have me get caught.

Speaker 1 00:22:56 What would you say, either one of you guys, to the person who’s listening to this, who hasn’t been exposed yet, right? And scripture says, your beware, your sin will find you out. What would you, would you, what would your council be to that person? Would you, because I’m sure they’re thinking in their head, I just, it’s, I’m gonna be able to keep the secret and that’s my plan. And or I would imagine they’re thinking, I’m gonna deal with it on my own. I’m going to solve this on my own. Right. And then, then maybe I’ll share it with someone once I’ve solved it. What would you say? Who, what would you say to that person?

Speaker 2 00:23:32 Well, I, I think that we all think that we’re gonna eventually solve the problem. And it hasn’t happened yet. Right. And so this step’s about having the humility to recognize I can’t solve this problem on my own. And so, you know, there’s this idea about fear of the Lord. Um, if, if, if we don’t do things the way he wants us to do, then he’ll eventually put obstacles in our way, uh, out of love, like you said, a blessing to push us along the way in which we should go. Um, but it’s always better to discipline yourself rather than to have someone else discipline you. Right?

Speaker 1 00:24:11 Yeah. So, mark, for you, if you, how now, thank, thank God for a wife who was forgiving and gracious. Right? But how do you think it would’ve landed for her if you would’ve just been honest before you even got caught? Would that have been better, worse, or the same?

Speaker 3 00:24:28 Well, I think if I had been completely honest the first time I got caught with everything, I wouldn’t have gone down the rabbit hole as far as I did. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, it probably would’ve been, um, easier to restore my marriage. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> it would’ve been, you know, I could have gotten a handle on this a lot sooner. Um, there wouldn’t have been as much chaos and destruction. There was a lot of, it wasn’t just my wife that I hurt mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, there was a trail of people all throughout it. So yeah. I mean there’s, there’s just a lot less that that could have occurred if I had, um, been able to have the courage to come out with it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the first time.

Speaker 1 00:25:05 Well, yeah. And what about if you would’ve come out even before you got outed? What if you would’ve just, cuz there’s some, there are probably some listeners who are married, they’re married to their spouse and their spouse has no idea. Wouldn’t, is this naive of me to think that it would be a lot easier if you came, even though you don’t hear this a lot, if you just came and said, look, I was listening to this podcast and I’ve gotta be honest with you about something bef before I even get caught. I just need to come clean. I need to tell you cause I need help and I’m gonna start working toward help, but I’m gonna need to your forgiveness and Right. So even before it comes out, wouldn’t it just, wouldn’t it just be even that much easier than to rebuild trust? Right. Because you didn’t get caught. You actually confessed it. Boy, that’d be great, wouldn’t it?

Speaker 2 00:25:53 Yeah. And I, I think that concept will come out, uh, when we get through the steps, like into, when it gets into step, uh, eight and nine, when we talk about, um, repentance, what’s the word? Making amends. Making amends. Yes. Uh, but there is a, a sense in which what I have always taught people is that people are willing to forgive a person who comes out and is honest versus, um, a person that gets found out. Right. Because you’ve all heard that saying before you’re just sorry cuz he got caught. Right. Right. Um, versus, you know, nobody’s perfect. Um, and I think God desires a heart that we would, we would come to him and say, I’ve sinned against you. I’ve done this wrong against you. And he, and he, and he says, if, if we confess that he, he forgives it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so especially if your family member or friend is a Christian, um, there is a sense and duty in which that if, if you go to them and confess your sin, that they ought to forgive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there’s an accountability. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that they should forgive. Doesn’t mean that they’re not gonna be heard about it. And there might not still be consequences, but I do think the consequences are gonna be a lot less because as you said, it’s easier to trust a person that says it when they didn’t need to versus getting caught.

Speaker 1 00:27:17 And I would say, if that’s you listening to this, I would also say you, your soul will be unburdened, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because you guys both understand the burden of carrying around that secret sin. Nobody else knows about it, it’s a burden, right?

Speaker 3 00:27:32 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, um, for me, it came down to, you know, the first time I got caught, I, I came out with, I admitted to everything that I knew I needed to admit to that, you know, was already known about, but I didn’t come out with everything. And in fact, it took me falling back into my addiction even deeper and, and everything. And, and getting to the point where I realized that my marriage was not the most important relationship in my life. When I realized that I needed God more than anything else, um, that’s when I was finally given the courage to tell everything to my wife. And I knew as I went into that, that that was going to be the end of my marriage. I knew, um, just, just because, you know, I know, I know my wife. I, I know everything that she’s already been through.

Speaker 3 00:28:28 I knew that there was no way that my marriage was gonna survive me telling her these last few secrets that I had, but I made that decision to do it because I chose God over my marriage. And not that that’s, you know, I’m, I’m married to this day, um, because of God’s grace. Um, but that’s not necessarily the, the story that, that anybody should expect either. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I didn’t expect it. And, and I know that it’s just a blessing that I’m married today mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I was ready to, to give up my marriage to have, um, a relationship with God

Speaker 1 00:29:06 And the irony or the blessing, or maybe irony’s not the right word, the outcome was you’ve got both.

Speaker 3 00:29:13 Yeah. Yeah. As undeserving as I am of it, and it’s, for me, that’s just kind of another picture of, of, of grace. Right. Of <laugh>. I’m just, I’m a undeserving of, of, you know, God’s forgiveness just as much as I am undeserving of my wife’s forgiveness. Mm-hmm. And because she’s a believer, I think God gave her that strength, that, that peace to overcome <laugh>, you know, the, the hurt, hurt and the pain mm-hmm. <affirmative> and all those things. It’s, it’s all, it was all God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s all of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Speaker 1 00:29:46 Now, Eric with a drug addiction, with a, with an alcohol addiction, a lot of times you can’t hide that. Right. So, mark, with your addiction, it was, it was hidden, I would imagine from your wife for quite a while. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And maybe she wasn’t aware, maybe she saw signs here and there, but she didn’t, that’s different than a guy. A guy walks into his house stumbling drunk or Right. Or clearly you’re not yourself. You are, there’s something wrong. There’s something going on, what you, what’s happening. Right. So, so maybe speak to that a little bit. Is it, is it hard? Am I, am I being naive? Is it, is it harder to hide a drug or alcohol addiction?

Speaker 2 00:30:28 Um, I’m, I think in most cases, no. I think that you can spot someone who’s got a heavy drug or alcohol addiction, but I, you know, I know that, that there are many people that probably, you know, come to our churches or that we work with alongside, you know, that, or we go and see ’em in grocery stores that they’re fine when we see ’em face to face, but we don’t know what their home, li life is like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know. And so they, again, there are people that, that do put on a good show and can maintain, um, while going and getting their fix, you know, every day. Hmm. So I think it’s a mixed group, but, um, when it comes to heavy, you know, drug addiction, especially with, with certain drugs that, uh, you know, causes you to look, you know, sickly or lose weight or, or whatever it is, I mean, it, it is harder.

Speaker 2 00:31:28 That was probably the case in for me. Um, especially when using, you know, when when you are so addicted to something that you’ll, you’ll spend all your money for it and you’ll spend all your time trying to get it. Um, eventually you’re not taking care of your body. You’re not taking care of yourself. And so it’s gonna be visible. It’s gonna be visible in your eyes, in your face, in your, your skin tone, and sometimes your teeth, you know? And so really it’s, it’s tough to hide, but now that I’m, I’m clean and sober, um, they say that we have a sixth sense <laugh>, a sixth sense, and it, it’s like almost like, uh, a discernment gift or something like that, that I have, but it, it’s kind of crazy. I can, when some people won’t notice that somebody’s on something, I can, uh, just because I don’t, I, I can’t fully understand, uh, explain it. Other than that I knew when I was trying to hide it, I thought I was getting one over on everybody and I probably was. Um, but not everybody, especially when the consequences started happening. Right. Like, not making it to work on time, running outta money, lying, you know, all that type of stuff that happens as a

Speaker 1 00:32:46 Result. So what would you guys say to the mom or the dad or the spouse who’s listening to this, who would, who’s just hoping that their spouse or CH child would listen to this? What would you say to them? If they feel like they think that their loved one has an addiction and they don’t, they don’t really know how to approach it. They’ve tried to, they’ve asked, Hey, are you okay? Are you doing, you know, maybe they’ve been caught dune pot or, or drinking or whatever. Um, and then, and they, they say, are you doing, and they deny it, but they, but, but that spouse or loved one has a sense that I think you might be lying. What, having been there, what would you say is there, is there any possible way that that husband or wife or mom or dad can say something that would make a difference, that would get through to that, to that addict?

Speaker 3 00:33:39 Well, that’s, I mean, that’s, that’s a tough one. Yeah. Right. I mean, it really is, it’s tough for all of us to understand, you know, exactly what we can do to help somebody in that situation, because it does come down to, uh, you know, an individual recognizing their powerlessness. Yeah. And that’s, that has to be their recognition. Um, but I think just keeping conversation going mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, continuing to encourage vulnerability and openness and expressing love, um, through it all. One of the things that I’ve noticed, and, and you know, this is just for my own experience, is, um, as a parent, being vulnerable with, with our kids helps them to feel comfortable to share struggles that they might have.

Speaker 1 00:34:34 Yeah. That’s good.

Speaker 3 00:34:35 Yep. So for me, that’s, that’s kind of the approach that I’ve taken. And I’m, you know, we’ve, we’ve experienced a lot of things that, in my marriage, that the kids were, were a witness to, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they, they knew exactly what was going on. And so I think that’s, that’s helped. And, and thankfully we haven’t heard of, you know, or witnessed any, anything like that, but they have been able to share things that I think maybe they would’ve been uncomfortable with. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if we weren’t as vulnerable as we are. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 00:35:02 <affirmative>, Eric, you kind of shrugged at first. Like this first time I saw you without something to say. I’ve never seen that before in you that you didn’t have an answer, but I know it’s, cuz you, you’re a, you’re a dad now, you mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you’ve been there and, and I think probably people who have struggled with addiction can sometimes be the most militant about it with their kids, because people like me, I don’t, I don’t, like you said, I don’t always know what I’m looking for mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so I might not spout spot it, but people who have had that in their past, a lot of times your, your reaction can be so strong that it’s, that it could almost maybe come across like, there’s not grace and then Right. Mark, then people might, your kids or your spouse then might withdraw even more. So again, we’re trying to, I know there’s not one perfect answer to this, but Eric, what would you say to that? Have you seen that in your own response sometimes to your kids? Sometimes to kids?

Speaker 2 00:35:56 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there is a certain concern and fear that because what I went through, um, was not ideal for anybody to have to go through. I don’t want to see my own kids do that. I have a, a teenager now, and I got, you know, two other boys and one on the way, you know, and so I, I am learning how to balance, um, you know, this, this intuition I have, you know, over paranoia, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative> a little bit. But I, you know, it is hard for me to, to trust like, you know, humanity because like, you know, the Bible is clear that we all struggle, we all struggle with this sin and this flesh flesh nature. And so that’s my number one thing that I, that’s my worldview. I look out there, I look at my family members, I look at people and I say people are capable of the worst.

Speaker 2 00:36:56 And so for me, one thing that’s happened to me is I’ve become a pretty direct person, um, black and white on a lot of things. Uh, it’s easier for me, um, to communicate that way, to understand things, to get across what I need to get across. And I’m, I’m learning emotional intelligence, and we’ll talk more about that later as well. But, um, I do think there’s a good balance with getting involved and being direct directly ask, asking questions in your kids’ lives. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, Hey, when you were at that party last week, was anybody drinking or smoking? Okay. You know, does any of you, does any of your friends, uh, are, are they vaping? Um, does, does your friends as parents, um, you know, allow certain activities at their houses? I think those questions can be answered. And that’s a fair thing to do, especially if we want to protect our kids.

Speaker 2 00:37:50 But there’s also, yeah, I’ve taken it too far and, you know, maybe been a, a bit too strict, um, not allowing my kids to have, you know, some, some fun sometimes because I’m worried that, you know, if they go to this party, they might be exposed to something mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but really I think the best way is to train them up so that when they do go and be around something, because you can’t protect them forever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when they are around something, they have the tools that they need, um, they’re prepared and they know that you love them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so when you first asked that question, I thought to myself, you know, how can, how could, uh, you soften the blow when asking a question to try to, to get someone to admit to you what they’re doing? I think it’s first and foremost helping them understand, no matter how you answer, I love you. No matter how this turns out. I love you, and it might be hard for me, but it’s gonna be better for you and me in the long run if we, uh, get this out in the open.

Speaker 1 00:38:54 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That’s good. Okay. So step one is about admitting that you’re powerless and that you’ve messed things up. You’re, what, what’s the word that you like? That your life has become unmanageable, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you know, when I, when I hear that, I think, you know, I wonder if Paul, the apostle Paul went to aa mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because obviously I’m joking. Um, maybe this is where they get it from. Right? Romans chapter seven, the apostle Paul writes this, and here’s a guy that was a Pharisee. He was like super legalist, legalistic. He was a, he was one of those guys that crossed all of his T’s and dotted all of his eyes. And then he met Jesus and he realized that he, that he didn’t have anything until he had Jesus. But later on, the apostle Paul writes this in Romans seven, starting verse 15.

Speaker 1 00:39:40 He says, I don’t really understand myself. And so for those of you listening, just listen to Paul’s words. And here’s a guy that is one of the most influential Christians in the history of the world. And ev and I love this because even he says this in his, in his letter to the Romans, he says, I don’t really understand myself for I wanna do what it’s right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate, but if I know what I’m doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law, you know, the legal code, the morality is, is good. He says, so I’m not the one doing wrong. It’s the sin living in me that does it. And he says, and I know verse 18, and I know that nothing good lives in me, that is in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t.

Speaker 1 00:40:25 I wanna do what is good, but I don’t, I, I, uh, I I don’t wanna do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. Right? But if I do what I don’t want to do, I’m not really the one doing wrong. It’s the sin living in me that, that that does it. And so he says this, I’ve discovered this principle of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. It’s like he keeps repeating this. He’s mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s almost like it’s confession, right? It’s almost like he’s just, he’s being, he’s having a moment of vulnerability here in his writing. He says, I love God’s law with all my heart, but there’s another power within me that is at war with my mind, which is so interesting, right? Cuz I think a lot of addiction, some of this, a big part of that struggle is in your mind, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he says, this power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death. And before I read the last verse in that passage, which answers the question, by the way mm-hmm. <affirmative>, can you guys relate to that? When you read that, uh, for guys who have struggled with addiction? Can you relate to that?

Speaker 3 00:41:34 Yeah. I mean, <laugh>, that, that right there, that’s my, that’s my story, right? I, I know what I’m doing is wrong. I know that I don’t want to do it, and yet I continue to do it because really, I’m, I’m a slave to it. I am a slave to this thing, and I have no way of overcoming this. That’s, that’s really where, where Paul is at, is, is what he’s talking about right here, is, there’s nothing I can do about this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I live with this, this sin nature. I live with this, this power over me that wants to do wrong, that wants to do evil, and there’s nothing in my own strength I can do to overcome this. Right? And that’s what step one is all about. And so that’s why this, this is so relatable to this step.

Speaker 1 00:42:22 So Eric, what’s the, what’s the answer then? How does he finish the story? Is the answer Get into a, get into an AA program, um, start drinking a certain kind of bottled water <laugh>. I mean, what’s, what’s the biblical answer to this problem?

Speaker 2 00:42:37 He says, thanks be to, you know, Jesus Christ, my Lord. Um, that that’s the solution. That thank God that Jesus Christ came to save me. Thank God that I don’t have to be perfect and do what’s right every single time. Um, because Jesus Christ took my place of that perfection that God requires for anyone to be in relationship with him. But yet, but God loved us so much. The famous verse, you know, he sent his only begotten son so that we who believe in him can have eternal life. Um, he sent his son to, to set us free from that slavery that Paul is talking about. He, it’s like he’s, he’s, he’s, he’s in this shame cycle that he’s got of himself saying, man, I, you know, I know what God wants me to do, but, but, but yet I have this other desire. And every time I try to stop myself from doing it, I just end up slipping.

Speaker 2 00:43:38 And and that’s the crazy crazy cycle in addiction, is we do something to cope, to escape feelings, to, uh, mask how we’re, uh, feeling emotionally. And then we do it. And then we feel shameful for doing the drug or the alcohol or the watching the porn or eating what we weren’t supposed to, whatever we were trying to stop doing. We feel shame because of that and guilt. And then that causes us to use again to mask that feeling again. And that’s the cycle of addiction that most people are caught in. They can’t break the cycle. Um, but Jesus breaks the cycle for us because if you go on to Romans chapter eight, right? Verse one, it says, there, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That’s the next verse. Um, there were no chapters back when they wrote this, by the way, <laugh>, we, we used that so that we can easily find verses, chapters and verse numbers. But that’s a freeing thing to know that, uh, we don’t have to be perfect. That Christ took, took our place for us. And so therefore, we don’t have to have guilt, shame, condemnation, we can break the cycle, understanding that Jesus, Jesus is the solution. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 00:44:58 Well, now we’re stepping into week two. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because step two, which we’ll cover next time, is to believe in a greater power. And so I hate to do this to our listeners, to leave them hanging on verse 24, where Paul is just, just beside himself. But in verse 25, like you said, Eric, he says, the answer is Jesus. And we’re gonna talk about that next time when we cover step two. But for those of you listening, if you want to talk more about this, if you wanna talk about this with a friend, with a small group, with a mentor, you can find this podcast along with a video, a short video, and some discussion questions, and some of these talking points. You can find it all@pursuegod.org. Just go into the search section there and search for step one and you’ll find it. And then join us next time, because next time we’re gonna talk about that second step toward recovery from addiction. These guys, mark and Eric will be with me and we’ll talk about what the Bible says about who that better, that greater power is that can save you. And it’s not just that higher pow power isn’t just the light bulb above your head, right? So you have to come tune in next time to hear about that. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.